The 2015 MotorPunk Sprint Series

[NickD]

I'm not trying to be down on it at all, just I know how much it costs to do things and my business partner will not do anything unless it is proper, that includes risk assessments and method statements. From this you know what you can do and can't do and yes it can be very frustrating when someone comes along and suggests things can be done on shoe strings.
It is a competition, people are going to try. To make this legal or needs exemption from the road traffic act, there are bodies that can grant this, but they charge. You need all the other stuff to go with it. 30 runs at 2 minutes per car is an hour each, there is only 8 hours in which they can run and Cueborough want marshals and race overalls if the long course is used.

Dave Paterson is the SDCC Secretary.

[Cerberus]

I'm surprised at the figures being thrown around. It does seem, from the informed guesses of those in the know, that this event is a total non starter. I have no knowledge on how to rent a circuit for a club or how to run a track day. I obviously bow to you guys greater knowledge.

It does say on the Sprint Series Site:

In association with, in no particular order; Mission MotorSport, Caterham Cars, PPC Magazine, and the Morgan Motor Company.

So if it is a con job they have some pretty big fish on the hook? Or maybe they are straight up legit and despite already having run days at the venue they have grossly underestimated the costs involved?

They do seem to have agreed dates with the venue. Which, assuming they are not made up, means the venue is aware of their plans?

Well, they don't have any of my money yet. It's pay on the day. I won't make it to the first round as a competitor. So I shall visit as a spectator and see what occurs on the day.

#confusedofbirmingham

[NickD]

It not so much the money from my point of view, they have to do their sums, but I do think they are wrong, but the 30 to 50 runs they are stating. People read this and think that is what will happen but that everyone else can do it and that that is the cost. A flying lap of the short course at Curbourough is about 30 seconds, so 3 laps is a minute and a half. Given that there will be errors, people not being where they need to be, spins, crashes, breakdowns, putting cones back, repairs, toilet breaks and plain just forgetting to start the stop watch I don't think there is any way to get the average run below 5 minutes across the whole day. 30 runs is two and a half hours for one car. Every n if that can be got down to 2 minutes, it's an hour. There is only 8 hours in the day, 7 if you want a lunch break, that then is £480 gross income. The two blokes running it would want a minimum of £100 each. Insurance, medic, it leaves about 50p. I think they would need at least 16 cars at the very minimum, which means each car is only going to get about 5 or 6 runs in reality. Certainly no more that 10.
There was the recent Mission Motorsport day at Croft that was cancelled as the figures the organiser planned on were way off track. To me this is another one of them, stick Mission Motorsport on the front end and everyone will flock to it. I just don't think the numbers add up.

[Vindi (Russell)]

They could be bringing in some money other ways? ... vendors paying to display / sell stuff at the track? I'm thinking a food / drinks van mainly although in reality the "event" is going to be tiny, so maybe not ... tie ins with other companies sponsoring the day? Tie in with a magazine to cover the series? Photographer to sell photos / videos of the day? Not sure, but you'd think they would have done their sums ... wouldn't you?

Russell.

[NickD]

The more motorsport the better, personally I think is is yet another case of add Mission Motorsport to something and we will be successful.

[Cerberus]

The more motorsport the better, personally I think is is yet another case of add Mission Motorsport to something and we will be successful.

I have to agree.

The long and short of it really is-

Assuming, One Sprint : 2 minutes
30 sprints : One hour
30 sprints for 20 cars : 20 hours

I just doesn't add up....

[Cerberus]

Ok so there is a thread on the darkside about this (which is where I first saw it). So I just posted this on the thread :

I do have one question........

You say on your website that we can expect 30 sprints, maybe 50, on the day.

If you cap the day at, say 20 cars. and a sprint at Curborough takes.... lets say, for argument sake, 2 minutes.

2 minutes x 30 sprints = 1 hour on track per car.
1 hour per car x 20 cars = 20 hours of track time.

In a day.....? That doesn't add up!

If there were only 8 cars...

1 hour per car x 8 cars = 8 hours of track time. Might fit that in, maybe.

but

8 cars x £60 each = £480

and that doesn't sound like a lot of money to run a day? Renting tracks is expensive.

What am I missing? Will the days be limited to just a handful of cars?

I don't mean to sound like a grumpy (and obviously I don't expect you to discuss your finances!) I just ran the numbers in my head and couldn't see how you can make this work? I hope you can, because it sounds like great fun, but.....

http://www.mx5nutz.com/forum/index.php? ... 169522&hl=

Cat, meet pigeons.....

[NickD]

Genuinely hats off to them for giving it a go, the more motorsport in the UK the better.
The problem I see is that motorsport has not just fallen from the sky and many clubs, organisations and individuals have been doing it a long time and if the pricing was that easy, it would be being done.
On Nutz they are saying 30 cars per round, that is £1,800 which is more like what they need. Curborough are happy to rent the circuit for private hire for the £600, but start making money from it and they want their cut, naturally. However using the 2 minute figure that would mean an hour for each car to get through, so only 7 runs, but it won't be that efficient, I would guess about 5 runs each at that number of cars which brings it back to where most normal Sprints are.
Now if they go to market saying this, that it is Sprint series without serious rules, cheap to enter, with a couple of tasty prizes at the end, I think it is much better and more honest to people.

I think however, they will come across big issues with timing and making errors and the winners are so likely to be the ones that can sandbag best. From totally wrong tyre pressures through to detuning engines, messing with suspension, screwing aligmnet, weather, Wallie tyres to slicks and anything else, I think it is going to be a year of arguments for them.

[Cerberus]

Well... they replied...

Short answer: It works, the guys at SprintAndTrackday (who will be running the event) used exactly the same format this year.

Long answer: Not all the cars will run all day at every event. See the Morgan 3 wheeler? That's me. I did about 6 runs, sh*t myself and spent the rest of the day enjoying the action with a cuppa in hand from the paddock. Someone else turned up, broke down, and went home. The amount of sprints you get will depend on factors such as weather, reliability, daylight hours and (of course) turnout, but the guys know what they're doing and the numbers are based on previous experience. It will be a blast.

Not all cars coming are super-reliable MX-5s

Which sounds reasonable.

I see what you mean about the sandbagging though! I'm already planning to do the first couple of sprints on those crappy Toyo tyres

[NickD]

Here is how it goes. Car 14 has just been out on it's 7th run, it's 4 o'clock, the track has just fully dried after being damp all day and set a good time. All the following cars are also setting good times. You, as car 26 are waiting for your turn when car 21 stuffs it off on the exit of the Molehill and it takes 20 minutes to get it out the ditch, then car 24 drops oil on the circuit and closes the track, 5pm arrives, you've not had your fast run. Are you happy?
I think the response says it all, they don't know, and their answers isn't really an answer. If 20% of people who have paid money decide that they can't be bothered to do more than 5 runs, that still only takes 6 cars out and that is still 5 hours of the day gone. We found it a very steep learning curve running "proper" sprints. They are competitions and people get very competitive. We have had physical arguments with people over a tenth of a second, lengthy emails over positioning calculations and all sorts of moaning about why other were faster than they were.
It will be fun year.

[NickD]

Well... they replied...

Short answer: It works, the guys at SprintAndTrackday (who will be running the event) used exactly the same format this year.

Long answer: Not all the cars will run all day at every event. See the Morgan 3 wheeler? That's me. I did about 6 runs, sh*t myself and spent the rest of the day enjoying the action with a cuppa in hand from the paddock. Someone else turned up, broke down, and went home. The amount of sprints you get will depend on factors such as weather, reliability, daylight hours and (of course) turnout, but the guys know what they're doing and the numbers are based on previous experience. It will be a blast.

Not all cars coming are super-reliable MX-5s

Which sounds reasonable.

I see what you mean about the sandbagging though! I'm already planning to do the first couple of sprints on those crappy Toyo tyres

I would ask what the long answer is.

[Cerberus]

Well... they replied...

Short answer: It works, the guys at SprintAndTrackday (who will be running the event) used exactly the same format this year.

Long answer: Not all the cars will run all day at every event. See the Morgan 3 wheeler? That's me. I did about 6 runs, sh*t myself and spent the rest of the day enjoying the action with a cuppa in hand from the paddock. Someone else turned up, broke down, and went home. The amount of sprints you get will depend on factors such as weather, reliability, daylight hours and (of course) turnout, but the guys know what they're doing and the numbers are based on previous experience. It will be a blast.

Not all cars coming are super-reliable MX-5s

Which sounds reasonable.

I see what you mean about the sandbagging though! I'm already planning to do the first couple of sprints on those crappy Toyo tyres

I would ask what the long answer is.

eh?

[NickD]

I should have said "ask them what the real long answer is."
I think their long answer is still the short answer.
If you enter a competion you play till the end, you don't see Andy Murry get to the quarter finals at Wimbledon and then say, I think I'll go home, or a football team go off at half time and say, we're not coming back out, we've had enough today. Saying you will get 30 to 50 runs, omitting the "30 cars limit" and then responding with "well if a load of people break down, have enough or just plain scare themselves and if the weather is good, and, and, and, then you will get plenty of runs, " is not "you will get 30 to 50 runs."
It took us 3 hours to get 25 cars round Blyton 8 times on 1:30 laps, but we had 3 cars on track at once, so a car every 30 seconds. For them to get 20 cars round just once will be an hour and a half and that is without any problems. His 6 runs would have taken 20 minutes alone, frightened or not.
Why does this matter? Because it is a silly thing to say, or even an outright lie, to say that people will get 30 to 50 runs when the only way is if only a few turn up or most go home by lunch time.
I am not saying it is a bad thing to have a go, sprints are great, the adrenaline flows, however; personally I think it really hasn't been thought through and there are a huge amount of buts and maybe's. I strikes as being on a shoestring, without the stuff you need in place. Will they have a paramedic for instance? I have a feeling that at this point, it has not been planned or accounted for. You can't put those costs in place and then hope that people turn up on the day. Sure they want £50 registration, but that is not covering a lot, an IOPD licence will cost £25 of that. Yes you can go without it, but if not legal, if someone is injured, or injured badly they will be in court.

[Cerberus]

Ohhh, yeah... "The real long answer" I see what you mean now.

[greg#2]

You've just got to go, expect half a dozen goes, for it to be a bit pikey and a bit of fun.

We could sit here all day and pick holes in their business plan (no, really, we could!!!!) but it is an event and it isn't very much money.

I would certainly not be paying the £50 admin fee at the beginning of day 1, i'd turn up as 'interested joe - Here's my £50' the first time and see how it goes, if 4 people attend and you get a stack of goes, then great (not that it will last long or be 'a competition' - but that's bye the bye)

If the reality is it's a load of innit bruvs revving their corsas or dickheads trying to drift everywhere then you can do a bannatyne, if it's all supercharged TVRs and porsches as they are saying on their website then you will be in for a great day of car porn.

Suck it and see - if nothing else, go with a morbid sense of curiosity (but do not pay the admin fee on day 1)